Return-Path: Received: from mx6.boston.juno.com (mx6.boston.juno.com [64.136.24.38]) by m7.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AAA86AZ8YAGS23FA for (sender ); Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:40:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from exchange3.activevoice.com (sea-gateway1.activevoice.com [198.207.218.1]) by mx6.boston.juno.com with SMTP id AAA86AZ8XAZ4NLV2 (sender ); Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:40:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by EXCHANGE3 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:42:47 -0800 Message-ID: From: Andrew Hammoude To: "'ltownsend3@juno.com'" Cc: "'Andrew Hammoude (Juno)'" Subject: FW: Re: guest? Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:42:36 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C28065.A4C01860" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C28065.A4C01860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Louise, I dropped my writings in the mail this afternoon; should get to you in a day or two. A few things: Though I said it on the phone I want to put this in writing: beyond a certain obvious point in my notes I move from a general analysis to one directed specifically at you. But I freely acknowledge that I don't know all the facts, and I'm making a lot of assumptions. If I'm out of line, I'll apologize and back down. Also, a minor comment on something you wrote: I don't believe I have said anywhere that "Karen should be barred from the group because of what she does for a living." Regarding the possible charge about me being less than perfectly courteous with Karen, or speaking in a condescending manner at times. Suppose Josef Mengele says, "Well look, if you're going to cop an attitude, I'm just not going to have this conversation with you." This would seem to make him pretty much safe from any reproach at all. Finally, though I said this on the phone I want to document this in writing too: If at the end of this (or even before) if you disagree with my veto action, I think it is perfectly reasonable for you to challenge it. It's clearly not right for a single person to dictate who may or may not be a member, if others disagree with his decisions. We could let the group know about the situation, and resolve it by a simple democratic process. (Well I understand that Karen is now completely put off, but still, in principle.) --Andrew -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Hammoude [mailto:hammoude@juno.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 2:42 AM To: Andrew Hammoude Subject: Fw: Re: guest? --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Louise D Townsend To: hammoude@juno.com Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:49:03 -0800 Subject: Re: guest? Message-ID: <20021029.074908.-280935.3.LTownsend3@juno.com> Hi, Andrew. Sorry I missed your call last night. Can you send me your writings electronically or are you worried about privacy issues (in which case, I suppose I could pick them up, or you could mail them to me or drop them off -- let me know what works). I am very interested in this issue and have become more so because of recent reading (did you see the review in the NYT of a book on animal rights by a former Bush speech writer?), so I look forward to reading your material, and I suspect I will learn a lot from it. That said, even if I begin to feel the kind of moral repugnance you describe (and I think I already feel it to a certain extent), I doubt it would persuade me that Karen should be barred from the group because of what she does for a living. The issue here (for me) was finding a congenial and smart addition to the group. As I pointed out to you the other day, we don't know everything about everybody who is already in the group, their politics, their vices, the possible ramifications of the work they do on the environment, the world at large, etc. (or do you?). To compare Karen to Mengele is to be absurdly reductionist, it seems to me, but perhaps after reading your material, I will see things differently. Louise On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 23:03:01 -0700 Andrew Hammoude writes: > Hi Louise, > > You're right -- your friend Karen is indeed smart and thoughtful; we > just had a great conversation. > > But not quite smart and thoughtful enough, and I'm vetoing her > membership in book group. She has been, and continues to be, > involved in animal experimentation, something I find morally > repugnant, and I prefer not to have to associate with the > perpetrators. > > If she truly loves to be challenged, then I believe she must have > been delighted by our conversation. > > Regrets, > Andrew > > > On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:11:18 -0700 Louise D Townsend > writes: > > Hi, Andrew. > > > > I have a friend in another book group and we're both kind of > > wearying of the lack of analysis and lackluster discussions that > we > > have had recently in that group. So I started to tell her about > our > > group and how lively and interesting the discussion can be and how > I > > really like what we read, the people, etc., etc., blah, blah, > blah. > > Anyway, I think this friend (Karen) would be a good fit. She's a > > scientist, smart and thoughtful, and really loves to be > challenged. > > > > > > So, might I bring her as a guest to the White Teeth discussion and > > > see if she might come on a regular basis? I wasn't sure if you > had > > a specific policy on membership (I remember you grilling me on the > > > phone!). Karen would be happy to call and talk to you if you > wanted > > to hear more about her reading experiences and interests, etc. > > > > Thanks, Andrew. > > > > Louise > > > > Louise Townsend > > 1134 19th Avenue, E. > > Seattle, WA 98112 > > (206) 329-2907 > > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C28065.A4C01860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FW: Re: guest?

Hi Louise,

I dropped my writings in the mail this afternoon; = should get to you in a day or two.

A few things:

Though I said it on the phone I want to put this in = writing: beyond a certain obvious point in my notes I move from a = general analysis to one directed specifically at you. But I freely = acknowledge that I don't know all the facts, and I'm making a lot of = assumptions. If I'm out of line, I'll apologize and back = down.

Also, a minor comment on something you wrote: I don't = believe I have said anywhere that "Karen should be barred from the = group because of what she does for a living."

Regarding the possible charge about me being less = than perfectly courteous with Karen, or speaking in a condescending = manner at times. Suppose Josef Mengele says, "Well look, if you're = going to cop an attitude, I'm just not going to have this conversation = with you." This would seem to make him pretty much safe from any = reproach at all.

Finally, though I said this on the phone I want to = document this in writing too: If at the end of this (or even before) if = you disagree with my veto action, I think it is perfectly reasonable = for you to challenge it. It's clearly not right for a single person to = dictate who may or may not be a member, if others disagree with his = decisions. We could let the group know about the situation, and resolve = it by a simple democratic process. (Well I understand that Karen is now = completely put off, but still, in principle.)

--Andrew


-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Hammoude [mailto:hammoude@juno.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 2:42 AM
To: Andrew Hammoude
Subject: Fw: Re: guest?

--------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Louise D Townsend = <ltownsend3@juno.com>
To: hammoude@juno.com
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:49:03 -0800
Subject: Re: guest?
Message-ID: = <20021029.074908.-280935.3.LTownsend3@juno.com>

Hi, Andrew.  Sorry I missed your call last = night.  Can you send me your
writings electronically or are you worried about = privacy issues (in which
case, I suppose I could pick them up, or you could = mail them to me or
drop them off -- let me know what works).

I am very interested in this issue and have become = more so because of
recent reading (did you see the review in the NYT of = a book on animal
rights by a former Bush speech writer?), so I look = forward to reading
your material, and I suspect I will learn a lot from = it.

That said, even if I begin to feel the kind of moral = repugnance you
describe (and I think I already feel it to a certain = extent), I doubt it
would persuade me that Karen should be barred from = the group because of
what she does for a living.  The issue here = (for me) was finding a
congenial and smart addition to the group.  As = I pointed out to you the
other day, we don't know everything about everybody = who is already in the
group, their politics, their vices, the possible = ramifications of the
work they do on the environment, the world at large, = etc. (or do you?).

To compare Karen to Mengele is to be absurdly = reductionist, it seems to
me, but perhaps after reading your material, I will = see things
differently.

Louise

On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 23:03:01 -0700 Andrew Hammoude = <hammoude@juno.com>
writes:
> Hi Louise,
>
> You're right -- your friend Karen is indeed = smart and thoughtful; we
> just had a great conversation.
>
> But not quite smart and thoughtful enough, and = I'm vetoing her
> membership in book group. She has been, and = continues to be,
> involved in animal experimentation, something I = find morally
> repugnant, and I prefer not to have to = associate with the
> perpetrators.
>
> If she truly loves to be challenged, then I = believe she must have
> been delighted by our conversation.
>
> Regrets,
> Andrew
>
>
> On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:11:18 -0700 Louise D = Townsend
> <ltownsend3@juno.com> writes:
> > Hi, Andrew.
> >
> > I have a friend in another book group and = we're both kind of
> > wearying of the lack of analysis and = lackluster discussions that
> we
> > have had recently in that group.  So = I started to tell her about
> our
> > group and how lively and interesting the = discussion can be and how
> I
> > really like what we read, the people, = etc., etc., blah, blah,
> blah. 
> > Anyway, I think this friend (Karen) would = be a good fit.  She's a
> > scientist, smart and thoughtful, and = really loves to be
> challenged. 
> >
> >
> > So, might I bring her as a guest to the = White Teeth discussion and
>
> > see if she might come on a regular = basis?  I wasn't sure if you
> had
> > a specific policy on membership (I = remember you grilling me on the
>
> > phone!).  Karen would be happy to = call and talk to you if you
> wanted
> > to hear more about her reading experiences = and interests, etc.
> >
> > Thanks, Andrew.
> >
> > Louise
> >
> > Louise Townsend
> > 1134 19th Avenue, E.
> > Seattle, WA  98112
> > (206) 329-2907
> >

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