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Louise Email 11/1/2002
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Return-Path: <AHammoude@activevoice.com> Received: from mx13.lax.untd.com (mx13.lax.untd.com [10.130.24.73]) by m7.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AAA9RCELCAB8XAFA for <hammoude@juno.com> (sender <AHammoude@activevoice.com>); Wed, 18 Jun 2003 21:26:26 -0400 (EST) Received: from exchange5.activevoice.com (sea-gateway1.activevoice.com [198.207.218.1]) by mx13.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AAA9RCELBAPNMAA2 for <hammoude@juno.com> (sender <AHammoude@activevoice.com>); Wed, 18 Jun 2003 18:26:25 -0700 (PST) Received: by exchange5.activevoice.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <ND4BQK8X>; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 18:22:57 -0700 Message-ID: <E93C63CF5FE48E4BAFBC9521BBFD4FE702A118@EXCHANGE4> From: Andrew Hammoude <AHammoude@activevoice.com> To: "'Andrew Hammoude (Juno)'" <hammoude@juno.com> Subject: FW: FW: Re: guest? Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 18:26:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C33601.C596D6D0" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33601.C596D6D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- From: Louise D Townsend [mailto:ltownsend3@juno.com] Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 2:42 PM To: Andrew Hammoude Subject: Re: FW: Re: guest? Thanks, Andrew. Received your notes which I read with interest. There's a lot of thinking I need to do about this, and it's frustrating because I don't really have the time (work pressures being what they are). But I will respond to your notes soon, once I've had more time to reflect and fashion a coherent response. In the meantime, my responses to your e-mail are below. LT On Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:42:36 -0800 Andrew Hammoude <AHammoude@activevoice.com> writes: > Hi Louise, > > I dropped my writings in the mail this afternoon; should get to you > in a day or two. > > A few things: > > Though I said it on the phone I want to put this in writing: beyond > a certain obvious point in my notes I move from a general analysis > to one directed specifically at you. But I freely acknowledge that I > don't know all the facts, and I'm making a lot of assumptions. If > I'm out of line, I'll apologize and back down. > > Also, a minor comment on something you wrote: I don't believe I have > said anywhere that "Karen should be barred from the group because of > what she does for a living." SEMANTICS, SEMANTICS. Why split hairs here? No, you didn't specifically say she should be "barred from the group because of what she does for a living." You said you were vetoing her membership because you prefer not to have to associate with people involved in animal experimentation. I fail to see how these two statements differ substantially. > > Regarding the possible charge about me being less than perfectly > courteous with Karen, or speaking in a condescending manner at > times. Suppose Josef Mengele says, "Well look, if you're going to > cop an attitude, I'm just not going to have this conversation with > you." This would seem to make him pretty much safe from any reproach > at all. AS I NOTED to you in our telephone conversation the other day, if one hopes to convince or persuade in debate, a courteous tone can often be more effective than an angrily passionate, snide, and condescending one. Words like "bullshit," "bogus," and "claptrap," and imprecations like "shame on you" detract from the persuasiveness of your argument, if only because they _distract_ the reader's attention from your many valid points. You're angry, Andrew, and it shows, and on a certain level, I respect that. But I think at many points your tone in the notes is downright inappropriate and, at times, crosses the border into offensive. But your tone is not the point here (unless you personally meant to hurt me?) and what I really want to respond to is your carefully reasoned arguments, when, like I say, I have a chance to think my own position through more carefully. > > Finally, though I said this on the phone I want to document this in > writing too: If at the end of this (or even before) if you disagree > with my veto action, I think it is perfectly reasonable for you to > challenge it. It's clearly not right for a single person to dictate > who may or may not be a member, if others disagree with his > decisions. We could let the group know about the situation, and > resolve it by a simple democratic process. (Well I understand that > Karen is now completely put off, but still, in principle.) AS I THINK I mentioned, I haven't checked with Karen, but my sense is she'd be reluctant to come to the book group after your conversation. > > --Andrew > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Hammoude [mailto:hammoude@juno.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 2:42 AM > To: Andrew Hammoude > Subject: Fw: Re: guest? > > --------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Louise D Townsend <ltownsend3@juno.com> > To: hammoude@juno.com > Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:49:03 -0800 > Subject: Re: guest? > Message-ID: <20021029.074908.-280935.3.LTownsend3@juno.com> > > Hi, Andrew. Sorry I missed your call last night. Can you send me > your > writings electronically or are you worried about privacy issues (in > which > case, I suppose I could pick them up, or you could mail them to me > or > drop them off -- let me know what works). > > I am very interested in this issue and have become more so because > of > recent reading (did you see the review in the NYT of a book on > animal > rights by a former Bush speech writer?), so I look forward to > reading > your material, and I suspect I will learn a lot from it. > > That said, even if I begin to feel the kind of moral repugnance you > describe (and I think I already feel it to a certain extent), I > doubt it > would persuade me that Karen should be barred from the group because > of > what she does for a living. The issue here (for me) was finding a > congenial and smart addition to the group. As I pointed out to you > the > other day, we don't know everything about everybody who is already > in the > group, their politics, their vices, the possible ramifications of > the > work they do on the environment, the world at large, etc. (or do > you?). > > To compare Karen to Mengele is to be absurdly reductionist, it seems > to > me, but perhaps after reading your material, I will see things > differently. > > Louise > > On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 23:03:01 -0700 Andrew Hammoude > <hammoude@juno.com> > writes: > > Hi Louise, > > > > You're right -- your friend Karen is indeed smart and thoughtful; > we > > just had a great conversation. > > > > But not quite smart and thoughtful enough, and I'm vetoing her > > membership in book group. She has been, and continues to be, > > involved in animal experimentation, something I find morally > > repugnant, and I prefer not to have to associate with the > > perpetrators. > > > > If she truly loves to be challenged, then I believe she must have > > been delighted by our conversation. > > > > Regrets, > > Andrew > > > > > > On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:11:18 -0700 Louise D Townsend > > <ltownsend3@juno.com> writes: > > > Hi, Andrew. > > > > > > I have a friend in another book group and we're both kind of > > > wearying of the lack of analysis and lackluster discussions that > > > we > > > have had recently in that group. So I started to tell her about > > > our > > > group and how lively and interesting the discussion can be and > how > > I > > > really like what we read, the people, etc., etc., blah, blah, > > blah. > > > Anyway, I think this friend (Karen) would be a good fit. She's > a > > > scientist, smart and thoughtful, and really loves to be > > challenged. > > > > > > > > > So, might I bring her as a guest to the White Teeth discussion > and > > > > > see if she might come on a regular basis? I wasn't sure if you > > had > > > a specific policy on membership (I remember you grilling me on > the > > > > > phone!). Karen would be happy to call and talk to you if you > > wanted > > > to hear more about her reading experiences and interests, etc. > > > > > > Thanks, Andrew. > > > > > > Louise > > > > > > Louise Townsend > > > 1134 19th Avenue, E. > > > Seattle, WA 98112 > > > (206) 329-2907 > > > Louise Townsend 1134 19th Avenue, E. Seattle, WA 98112 (206) 329-2907 ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33601.C596D6D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META NAME="Generator" CONTENT="MS Exchange Server version 5.5.2653.12"> <TITLE>FW: FW: Re: guest?</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <BR> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>From: Louise D Townsend [<A HREF="mailto:ltownsend3@juno.com">mailto:ltownsend3@juno.com</A>] </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 2:42 PM</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>To: Andrew Hammoude</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Subject: Re: FW: Re: guest?</FONT> </P> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=2>Thanks, Andrew. Received your notes which I read with interest. There's</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>a lot of thinking I need to do about this, and it's frustrating because I</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>don't really have the time (work pressures being what they are). But I</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>will respond to your notes soon, once I've had more time to reflect and</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>fashion a coherent response. In the meantime, my responses to your</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>e-mail are below.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>LT</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>On Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:42:36 -0800 Andrew Hammoude</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2><AHammoude@activevoice.com> writes:</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Hi Louise,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> I dropped my writings in the mail this afternoon; should get to you </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> in a day or two.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> A few things:</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Though I said it on the phone I want to put this in writing: beyond </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> a certain obvious point in my notes I move from a general analysis </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> to one directed specifically at you. But I freely acknowledge that I </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> don't know all the facts, and I'm making a lot of assumptions. If </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> I'm out of line, I'll apologize and back down.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Also, a minor comment on something you wrote: I don't believe I have </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> said anywhere that "Karen should be barred from the group because of </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> what she does for a living."</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>SEMANTICS, SEMANTICS. Why split hairs here? No, you didn't specifically</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>say she should be "barred from the group because of what she does for a</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>living." You said you were vetoing her membership because you prefer not</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>to have to associate with people involved in animal experimentation. I</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>fail to see how these two statements differ substantially.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Regarding the possible charge about me being less than perfectly </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> courteous with Karen, or speaking in a condescending manner at </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> times. Suppose Josef Mengele says, "Well look, if you're going to </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> cop an attitude, I'm just not going to have this conversation with </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> you." This would seem to make him pretty much safe from any reproach </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> at all.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>AS I NOTED to you in our telephone conversation the other day, if one</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>hopes to convince or persuade in debate, a courteous tone can often be</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>more effective than an angrily passionate, snide, and condescending one. </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Words like "bullshit," "bogus," and "claptrap," and imprecations like</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>"shame on you" detract from the persuasiveness of your argument, if only</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>because they _distract_ the reader's attention from your many valid</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>points. You're angry, Andrew, and it shows, and on a certain level, I</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>respect that. But I think at many points your tone in the notes is</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>downright inappropriate and, at times, crosses the border into offensive.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>But your tone is not the point here (unless you personally meant to hurt</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>me?) and what I really want to respond to is your carefully reasoned</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>arguments, when, like I say, I have a chance to think my own position</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>through more carefully. </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Finally, though I said this on the phone I want to document this in </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> writing too: If at the end of this (or even before) if you disagree </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> with my veto action, I think it is perfectly reasonable for you to </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> challenge it. It's clearly not right for a single person to dictate </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> who may or may not be a member, if others disagree with his </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> decisions. We could let the group know about the situation, and </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> resolve it by a simple democratic process. (Well I understand that </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Karen is now completely put off, but still, in principle.)</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>AS I THINK I mentioned, I haven't checked with Karen, but my sense is</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>she'd be reluctant to come to the book group after your conversation.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> --Andrew</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> -----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> From: Andrew Hammoude [<A HREF="mailto:hammoude@juno.com">mailto:hammoude@juno.com</A>] </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 2:42 AM</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> To: Andrew Hammoude</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Subject: Fw: Re: guest?</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> --------- Forwarded message ----------</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> From: Louise D Townsend <ltownsend3@juno.com></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> To: hammoude@juno.com</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:49:03 -0800</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Subject: Re: guest?</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Message-ID: <20021029.074908.-280935.3.LTownsend3@juno.com></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Hi, Andrew. Sorry I missed your call last night. Can you send me </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> your</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> writings electronically or are you worried about privacy issues (in </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> which</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> case, I suppose I could pick them up, or you could mail them to me </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> or</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> drop them off -- let me know what works).</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> I am very interested in this issue and have become more so because </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> of</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> recent reading (did you see the review in the NYT of a book on </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> animal</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> rights by a former Bush speech writer?), so I look forward to </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> reading</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> your material, and I suspect I will learn a lot from it.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> That said, even if I begin to feel the kind of moral repugnance you</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> describe (and I think I already feel it to a certain extent), I </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> doubt it</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> would persuade me that Karen should be barred from the group because </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> of</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> what she does for a living. The issue here (for me) was finding a</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> congenial and smart addition to the group. As I pointed out to you </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> other day, we don't know everything about everybody who is already </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> in the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> group, their politics, their vices, the possible ramifications of </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> work they do on the environment, the world at large, etc. (or do </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> you?).</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> To compare Karen to Mengele is to be absurdly reductionist, it seems </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> to</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> me, but perhaps after reading your material, I will see things</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> differently.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Louise</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 23:03:01 -0700 Andrew Hammoude </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> <hammoude@juno.com></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> writes:</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > Hi Louise,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > You're right -- your friend Karen is indeed smart and thoughtful; </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> we </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > just had a great conversation.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > But not quite smart and thoughtful enough, and I'm vetoing her </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > membership in book group. She has been, and continues to be, </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > involved in animal experimentation, something I find morally </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > repugnant, and I prefer not to have to associate with the </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > perpetrators.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > If she truly loves to be challenged, then I believe she must have </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > been delighted by our conversation.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > Regrets,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > Andrew</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:11:18 -0700 Louise D Townsend </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > <ltownsend3@juno.com> writes:</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > Hi, Andrew.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > I have a friend in another book group and we're both kind of </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > wearying of the lack of analysis and lackluster discussions that </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > we </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > have had recently in that group. So I started to tell her about </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > our </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > group and how lively and interesting the discussion can be and </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> how </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > I </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > really like what we read, the people, etc., etc., blah, blah, </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > blah. </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > Anyway, I think this friend (Karen) would be a good fit. She's </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> a </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > scientist, smart and thoughtful, and really loves to be </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > challenged. </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > So, might I bring her as a guest to the White Teeth discussion </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> and </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > see if she might come on a regular basis? I wasn't sure if you </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > had </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > a specific policy on membership (I remember you grilling me on </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> the </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > phone!). Karen would be happy to call and talk to you if you </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > wanted </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > to hear more about her reading experiences and interests, etc.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > Thanks, Andrew.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > Louise</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > Louise Townsend</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > 1134 19th Avenue, E.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > Seattle, WA 98112</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > (206) 329-2907</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > </FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>Louise Townsend</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>1134 19th Avenue, E.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Seattle, WA 98112</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>(206) 329-2907</FONT> </P> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=2>________________________________________________________________</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Only $9.95 per month!</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Visit www.juno.com</FONT> </P> </BODY> </HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33601.C596D6D0--
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