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Andrew Email 10/30/2002
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Return-Path: <AHammoude@activevoice.com> Received: from mx6.boston.juno.com (mx6.boston.juno.com [64.136.24.38]) by m7.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AAA86AZ8YAGS23FA for <hammoude@juno.com> (sender <AHammoude@activevoice.com>); Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:40:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from exchange3.activevoice.com (sea-gateway1.activevoice.com [198.207.218.1]) by mx6.boston.juno.com with SMTP id AAA86AZ8XAZ4NLV2 (sender <AHammoude@activevoice.com>); Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:40:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by EXCHANGE3 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <T9CC43D1>; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:42:47 -0800 Message-ID: <E93C63CF5FE48E4BAFBC9521BBFD4FE7029F60@exchange4.activevoice.com> From: Andrew Hammoude <AHammoude@activevoice.com> To: "'ltownsend3@juno.com'" <ltownsend3@juno.com> Cc: "'Andrew Hammoude (Juno)'" <hammoude@juno.com> Subject: FW: Re: guest? Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:42:36 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C28065.A4C01860" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C28065.A4C01860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Louise, I dropped my writings in the mail this afternoon; should get to you in a day or two. A few things: Though I said it on the phone I want to put this in writing: beyond a certain obvious point in my notes I move from a general analysis to one directed specifically at you. But I freely acknowledge that I don't know all the facts, and I'm making a lot of assumptions. If I'm out of line, I'll apologize and back down. Also, a minor comment on something you wrote: I don't believe I have said anywhere that "Karen should be barred from the group because of what she does for a living." Regarding the possible charge about me being less than perfectly courteous with Karen, or speaking in a condescending manner at times. Suppose Josef Mengele says, "Well look, if you're going to cop an attitude, I'm just not going to have this conversation with you." This would seem to make him pretty much safe from any reproach at all. Finally, though I said this on the phone I want to document this in writing too: If at the end of this (or even before) if you disagree with my veto action, I think it is perfectly reasonable for you to challenge it. It's clearly not right for a single person to dictate who may or may not be a member, if others disagree with his decisions. We could let the group know about the situation, and resolve it by a simple democratic process. (Well I understand that Karen is now completely put off, but still, in principle.) --Andrew -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Hammoude [mailto:hammoude@juno.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 2:42 AM To: Andrew Hammoude Subject: Fw: Re: guest? --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Louise D Townsend <ltownsend3@juno.com> To: hammoude@juno.com Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:49:03 -0800 Subject: Re: guest? Message-ID: <20021029.074908.-280935.3.LTownsend3@juno.com> Hi, Andrew. Sorry I missed your call last night. Can you send me your writings electronically or are you worried about privacy issues (in which case, I suppose I could pick them up, or you could mail them to me or drop them off -- let me know what works). I am very interested in this issue and have become more so because of recent reading (did you see the review in the NYT of a book on animal rights by a former Bush speech writer?), so I look forward to reading your material, and I suspect I will learn a lot from it. That said, even if I begin to feel the kind of moral repugnance you describe (and I think I already feel it to a certain extent), I doubt it would persuade me that Karen should be barred from the group because of what she does for a living. The issue here (for me) was finding a congenial and smart addition to the group. As I pointed out to you the other day, we don't know everything about everybody who is already in the group, their politics, their vices, the possible ramifications of the work they do on the environment, the world at large, etc. (or do you?). To compare Karen to Mengele is to be absurdly reductionist, it seems to me, but perhaps after reading your material, I will see things differently. Louise On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 23:03:01 -0700 Andrew Hammoude <hammoude@juno.com> writes: > Hi Louise, > > You're right -- your friend Karen is indeed smart and thoughtful; we > just had a great conversation. > > But not quite smart and thoughtful enough, and I'm vetoing her > membership in book group. She has been, and continues to be, > involved in animal experimentation, something I find morally > repugnant, and I prefer not to have to associate with the > perpetrators. > > If she truly loves to be challenged, then I believe she must have > been delighted by our conversation. > > Regrets, > Andrew > > > On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:11:18 -0700 Louise D Townsend > <ltownsend3@juno.com> writes: > > Hi, Andrew. > > > > I have a friend in another book group and we're both kind of > > wearying of the lack of analysis and lackluster discussions that > we > > have had recently in that group. So I started to tell her about > our > > group and how lively and interesting the discussion can be and how > I > > really like what we read, the people, etc., etc., blah, blah, > blah. > > Anyway, I think this friend (Karen) would be a good fit. She's a > > scientist, smart and thoughtful, and really loves to be > challenged. > > > > > > So, might I bring her as a guest to the White Teeth discussion and > > > see if she might come on a regular basis? I wasn't sure if you > had > > a specific policy on membership (I remember you grilling me on the > > > phone!). Karen would be happy to call and talk to you if you > wanted > > to hear more about her reading experiences and interests, etc. > > > > Thanks, Andrew. > > > > Louise > > > > Louise Townsend > > 1134 19th Avenue, E. > > Seattle, WA 98112 > > (206) 329-2907 > > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C28065.A4C01860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version = 5.5.2653.12"> <TITLE>FW: Re: guest?</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hi Louise,</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I dropped my writings in the mail this afternoon; = should get to you in a day or two.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>A few things:</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Though I said it on the phone I want to put this in = writing: beyond a certain obvious point in my notes I move from a = general analysis to one directed specifically at you. But I freely = acknowledge that I don't know all the facts, and I'm making a lot of = assumptions. If I'm out of line, I'll apologize and back = down.</FONT></P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Also, a minor comment on something you wrote: I don't = believe I have said anywhere that "Karen should be barred from the = group because of what she does for a living."</FONT></P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Regarding the possible charge about me being less = than perfectly courteous with Karen, or speaking in a condescending = manner at times. Suppose Josef Mengele says, "Well look, if you're = going to cop an attitude, I'm just not going to have this conversation = with you." This would seem to make him pretty much safe from any = reproach at all.</FONT></P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Finally, though I said this on the phone I want to = document this in writing too: If at the end of this (or even before) if = you disagree with my veto action, I think it is perfectly reasonable = for you to challenge it. It's clearly not right for a single person to = dictate who may or may not be a member, if others disagree with his = decisions. We could let the group know about the situation, and resolve = it by a simple democratic process. (Well I understand that Karen is now = completely put off, but still, in principle.)</FONT></P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>--Andrew</FONT> </P> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Andrew Hammoude [<A = HREF=3D"mailto:hammoude@juno.com">mailto:hammoude@juno.com</A>] </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 2:42 AM</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: Andrew Hammoude</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Fw: Re: guest?</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>--------- Forwarded message ----------</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Louise D Townsend = <ltownsend3@juno.com></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: hammoude@juno.com</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:49:03 -0800</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: guest?</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID: = <20021029.074908.-280935.3.LTownsend3@juno.com></FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hi, Andrew. Sorry I missed your call last = night. Can you send me your</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>writings electronically or are you worried about = privacy issues (in which</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>case, I suppose I could pick them up, or you could = mail them to me or</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>drop them off -- let me know what works).</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I am very interested in this issue and have become = more so because of</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>recent reading (did you see the review in the NYT of = a book on animal</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>rights by a former Bush speech writer?), so I look = forward to reading</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>your material, and I suspect I will learn a lot from = it.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>That said, even if I begin to feel the kind of moral = repugnance you</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>describe (and I think I already feel it to a certain = extent), I doubt it</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>would persuade me that Karen should be barred from = the group because of</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>what she does for a living. The issue here = (for me) was finding a</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>congenial and smart addition to the group. As = I pointed out to you the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>other day, we don't know everything about everybody = who is already in the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>group, their politics, their vices, the possible = ramifications of the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>work they do on the environment, the world at large, = etc. (or do you?).</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>To compare Karen to Mengele is to be absurdly = reductionist, it seems to</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>me, but perhaps after reading your material, I will = see things</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>differently.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Louise</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 23:03:01 -0700 Andrew Hammoude = <hammoude@juno.com></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>writes:</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Hi Louise,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> You're right -- your friend Karen is indeed = smart and thoughtful; we </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> just had a great conversation.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> But not quite smart and thoughtful enough, and = I'm vetoing her </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> membership in book group. She has been, and = continues to be, </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> involved in animal experimentation, something I = find morally </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> repugnant, and I prefer not to have to = associate with the </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> perpetrators.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> If she truly loves to be challenged, then I = believe she must have </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> been delighted by our conversation.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Regrets,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Andrew</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:11:18 -0700 Louise D = Townsend </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> <ltownsend3@juno.com> writes:</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > Hi, Andrew.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > I have a friend in another book group and = we're both kind of </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > wearying of the lack of analysis and = lackluster discussions that </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> we </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > have had recently in that group. So = I started to tell her about </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> our </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > group and how lively and interesting the = discussion can be and how </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> I </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > really like what we read, the people, = etc., etc., blah, blah, </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> blah. </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > Anyway, I think this friend (Karen) would = be a good fit. She's a </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > scientist, smart and thoughtful, and = really loves to be </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> challenged. </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > So, might I bring her as a guest to the = White Teeth discussion and </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > see if she might come on a regular = basis? I wasn't sure if you </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> had </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > a specific policy on membership (I = remember you grilling me on the </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > phone!). Karen would be happy to = call and talk to you if you </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> wanted </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > to hear more about her reading experiences = and interests, etc.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > Thanks, Andrew.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > Louise</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > Louise Townsend</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > 1134 19th Avenue, E.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > Seattle, WA 98112</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > (206) 329-2907</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > </FONT> </P> </BODY> </HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C28065.A4C01860--
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